This discussion brings me to a general question..
In one year we maybe will have 3 Trackmania and 2 Shootmania environments. We can't expect, that on a big LAN every single title will be played with cash prizes. So what was Nadeo's idea behind that?

I thought the aim of Maniaplanet was to merge the community, which had been splitted earlier in TMN and TMU to get one big and strong community. In addition Shootmania and Questmania should bring more players to try the racing game, while Trackmaniacs also buy SM and QM. I thought that was the idea.

Unluckily there are not many players who play all titles. There is the problem. And when ESWC and other LANs have to deicde for one title (now with stadium), nothing did change to the past years, where only one environment out of 7 was played in LANs. With this trend you could see Canyon as 8th environment of TMUF, and the community stays splitted between Stadium and the rest. I don't think that this was Nadeo's aim.

There seems no best solution. But if the community shall grow together, there must be competitions containing all titles forcing players to try out the other titles as well. A winner of ESWC would be a driver who is able to play on highest level on all environments and would represent the whole Trackmania section of Maniaplanet and not just one part of it.

I know this would be a huge change. There must be competition systems containing all environments but they still have to be fair which isn't easy to achieve. I also guess that many would be against this as they don't want to learn more than one environment. It's just a suggestion, because otherwise nothhing will change and the communtiy will stay splitted like all the past years.

#58 Most All popular games right now, are based on the same thing, easy to learn, hard to master. Like the magnifico LoL (xD), who is so easy to play but hard to be a pro. In the other side Dota2 who is a lot more skilled. Guess who are the most players in their database?

Peoples now want a game where they can win, even if they have only play few hours.

Now this is the same with nation and canyon, sorry to tell you that (or not thats make you an ubber skilled player :)) but canyon is like lol and nation is like dota2 (without the notority).

Nation is hard to control and very hard to master.
Canyon is easy to control and hard to master.

And please don't tell that nations player can't play canyon at high level, we saw many of you guys winning (like extreme with only 1 week of game is already top1 dedi on zotac packmap).
In the other sides, canyon players on nation, we are just some retards compared to the pro.

After all this madness :D
Whatever the TM ill be watching the whole tournament and enjoying it nation or canyon.

#61 That's what I want to see with the release of Valley... Tournaments with a combination of all three environments of Maniaplanet.

Marius, you said just what I was thinking.

And I don't think that Canyon is a lot easier than stadium after all, it's just different. The differences are made with other things than on stadium. Easier to learn ok, maybe, but to master, not at all.

I am personally still wondering why it is not like TMU was, i mean, why is there not any TrackMania² Title with every Packs included in. Having cups with mix of envis should be better imo, fact is that i didn't played TM competitively so i can't really argue.

#62
I wrote a big text to your comment but my net went down just when i pressed the ''comment'' button. I don't think i have to tell you more about my position.. Canyon guys just can't accept the fact that Stadium is better for eSport and that's all. No excuses.
Best regards!

Stop with these stupid way of thinking please wally. I am really really pleased that our TM will go ESWC, and i'll watch with pleasure the tournament, and all the Freaks that will show us some awesome skill.
But omg what u say is just supid, are u that ignorant? For U, TMN suits better for eSport. I am happy for you that you are enjoying your game. But...Seriously, you know that there are people here around that love Canyon, and see on it a perfect eSport game.
How can seriously people be so selfish and see only their own world.
I'm not here to complain about Canyon not at ESWC blabla...But com on, you keep on saying that Canyon community says this and that. But you just say something realy anoying to hear for Canyon players.
What's you purpose when you say that?
There are many great fellows on both community, but honnestly, a majority of people that comment on the 2 games, and eSport here just say shit...

#61 I don't agree with your idea to force players to compete on all environments that would be absolutely retarded. People play games they enjoy, not games they HAVE TO, in order to be able to compete in.
Your proposition is like asking Counter-Strike players to compete on 1.6/Source/GO to win an event, that's a joke.

The Policy of Nadeo to introduce Canyon as eSport game is a debate since 2010, we were already saying it would lead to a huge fail for both communities and look now? Here we are...

I really hope Nadeo won't push Valley to be eSport title otherwise all Nadeo's games have no future in 2 years.

Dividing a small community was probably their biggest mistake, they should have kept supporting TMNF in LAN events and always propose new solutions to keep TMNF as top eSport racing game instead of trying to develop 500000 different games at same time.

Today Stadium is very underrated compared to other eSport title and Canyon is just nothing right now.

#68 Wasn't the fact before, that CS 1.6/S/GO are nearly the same games? and now you use it as a compare to the TM situation with completly diffrent styles? ^^

#69 first they are all different games, second I use it to compare to show how ridiculous #61 idea is, as on 3 games working on similar gameplays but still with some differences can't be played by everyone and are not enjoyed by everyone so on TM with complete different games and gameplays I don't see how it can work.

By the way, about almost similar games I can give you an example : TM²S is not enjoyed by every TMNF players however the gameplay modifications are very small ;)

#68 I think it's natural that you see this a bit different. You probably startet playing Trackmania in TMN, did you? So there has been always just this one game.

I started playing TM in 2004 with TMO. When TMU came out, this was for me still one game with 7 environments. I don't see it as a collection of 7 different games. All the big leagues in TMU work with all environments. Many teams consist of different player types; each player likes other environments more, but together they perfectly fit together. And Solocups like the GiantCup were also exciting every year.

If a LAN would take TMU, it would only make sense to play the whole game with all its environments there- Everybody would find it weird, if only one environment like Rally would represent it.

More than one environment in a competition can work. You shouldn't see them all as different games though I can understand that you see it like this. This title system in Maniaplanet maybe doesn't really help to see Stadium and Canyon as one game as well.

I agree with you Marius89, that would be the best way to show who is really the most skilled player.

However, do you think TM would have been known on the eSport's scene if ESWC would have picked TMUF? Idd there are some great players but compares to Stadium they are much less represented. That would have implied:
- Less spectarors because only TMUF players would have watched it (or at least be interested in it) ;
- Less show in long terms because less 'pro' players (as fB said, 7 different ESWC winners on TMNF, and young players are still coming which is pretty not the same on TMUF: there was much more pro players years ago and it is still decreasing).

I doubt that with these conditions TM would have been deployed in the eSport's scene. That's not because of skill, gameplay or whatever, but just because TMNF was free-to-play and all the people in the world had the opportunity to play on it without paying anything.

The casuals are the cash cow for offline events like ESWC. If casuals do not know a game, they don't come to see progamers fighting. I do not want to be offensive, but there was 4000 viewers last year during ESWC Canyon finals because there were some chairs to seat and rest but they mostly didn't expect to watch the finals of an unknown game (for them). Finally they enjoyed the finals, because of the players' skill, the tensions and suspens but did they bought the game after that? I guess only a few did. When someone watch a TMNF event, he's free to play the game, just to test and to understand how skilled this game is (Canyon is maybee more skilled, I dunno, but that's not the question). Then he feels involved in the game and want to watch more events. That's how TMNF increased its notoriety and why TMUF and Canyon both didn't.

#67 Did you read every comment in this news? I think you didn't because you think I AM the one who's selfish here?
I'm just saying stadium suits eSport better than canyon, that's all. That doesn't mean i'm selfish or anything. I mentionned in past comments (which you didn't read I guess) that i watched both games at ESWC 2012 and it was awesome!
Now YOU are coming and insulting me, saying that I'M stupid? Why?
I know people around love Canyon too. But it's not a reason for them to come and say full of bullsh*t around here!! (Don't take me wrong, I don't mean everybody who plays canyon, only some certain guys.. geovebviuofhbLAURENSofgeorugvn.)
Well... You are coming here, not reading every comment, and you're calling me an ignorant person with stupid arguments?.. Like I said, I'm just saying that ESWC had to take one game, and they took Stadium, which is the best for such a tournament IN MY OPINION. I never said Canyon was a ''bad'' game, or insulting the community, but guess what? We saw some Canyon kid raging around and insulting all the stadium community.
Infarctus, don't ever talk to me like that when you didn't have anything to proove..You only said I was ignorant, which i'm not, and my way of speaking was stupid. I don't want to call you anything, because that would be innapropriate. Bye

Forcing people to play games they don't want to is an extremely bad idea that won't lead to anything. Forcing in general is a bad idea.

I've said this before but there's 2 different ways of looking at TrackMania. One is the original way which is new environments mixed together and looked upon as equal, and another is 1 game that more or less stays the same with new updates added to it (TMN ESWC - TMNF - TM² Stadium). I strongly believe that the latter is the most suited for esports; that's how other successful esports are too such as Starcraft, and it just makes sense. Just look at the real world and the sports there and it should become obvious.

Nadeo made it so it was possible to look at TrackMania differently like this when they made the first game for ESWC, but I think they probably thought that was a mistake which is why they tried to kill off TMNF and make people switch over to Canyon. Because for them the original way was the "right" way of playing TrackMania and they couldn't accept that (many) people thought differently. It wasn't a smart move at all, and they probably realized it too which is why we now have the new game - why else bring it back. But I'm still a bit worried to be honest that they haven't learned this lesson yet and the game will just be buried among other environments which I think would really be a shame. Hylis hasn't really talked much about his plans recently.

#73 i red everything and it's boring...Everyone seems selfish here not you or me, but all...I was rude with you, sorry for that, just sadness seeing people that can never be pleased...i think i was talking to the whole community through you, i insulted you as if you were the jesus christ of TM. You represented the community.

Sry again dude, everyone says shit, so i thought i had to tune my comments with all of it.

I asked you if you were stupid, and u answered me, thank you.

An endless discussion =).. Stadium vs Canyon

Just pick both games at a LAN, or pick nothing at all.

Btw wally, you are so funny!

#72

I doubt that with these conditions TM would have been deployed in the eSport's scene. That's not because of skill, gameplay or whatever, but just because TMNF was free-to-play and all the people in the world had the opportunity to play on it without paying anything.

The casuals are the cash cow for offline events like ESWC. If casuals do not know a game, they don't come to see progamers fighting. I do not want to be offensive, but there was 4000 viewers last year during ESWC Canyon finals because there were some chairs to seat and rest but they mostly didn't expect to watch the finals of an unknown game (for them). Finally they enjoyed the finals, because of the players' skill, the tensions and suspens but did they bought the game after that? I guess only a few did. When someone watch a TMNF event, he's free to play the game, just to test and to understand how skilled this game is (Canyon is maybee more skilled, I dunno, but that's not the question). Then he feels involved in the game and want to watch more events. That's how TMNF increased its notoriety and why TMUF and Canyon both didn't

TRUE STORY! that is it what i mean...

#76 I'm not so sure who's the funny guy here to be honest........

#75 I don't know if it's sarcasm or serious...

#76 lmao...

#78 agreed :D

well, a bit of both i think...But still serious.